2019 Los Angeles Auto Show | Talking Cars with Consumer Reports #230

2019 Los Angeles Auto Show | Talking Cars with Consumer Reports #230

We’re on the floor of
the 2019 LA Auto Show next on Talking Cars. [THEME MUSIC] Hi. Welcome back. I’m Mike Quincy. I’m Jake Fisher. I’m Gabe Shenhar. So we’re on the floor
of the LA Auto Shows the last couple
days, walking around, taking in all this that’s
cool and new about what’s going on in the world of cars,
going to press conferences. And the theme that we
keep coming back to is, no surprise,
electrification. Yeah. Plug-ins, full EVs. The whole thing’s going on. And we’ve got a number
of notable cars here. Most specifically, I
think, what’s getting the most buzz is the
Ford Mustang Mach-E. I think it certainly looks
the part of a Mustang. What were your
guys’ take on this? I think it’s the
star of the show, even from before
the show started. Yeah. I think Ford is totally
in the right direction. Their greatest possession
is the Mustang name. And it is a sub-brand that’s
what we should capitalize on. And making that an EV and an
SUV at that is a great move– right price, the right
kind of shape, definitely. And do you think
there’s anything wrong with them using the Mustang
label on a vehicle like this? It’s funny, because that’s
kind of the most controversial thing. Right. Like, how can it be a Mustang? A Mustang’s supposed to be a
coupe and a sports car and all this stuff. And you know what’s
cool about it and what we’re seeing
a lot is that they’re breaking the rules. The rules is what a Mustang is. Look, we have a lot
of cars that are offering these kind of like
SUV-ish, crossover-ish electric vehicles. So OK, that’s a market. And they could’ve made it, like,
it could’ve been a Lincoln. But they’re like,
as Gabe says, there is this equity with
the Mustang name and let’s go break some rules. Let’s go call it a Mustang. Let’s give it some
of that flavor to it. Doesn’t have to be
a luxury vehicle. It’s sporty. And when you get down
to electric vehicles, electric vehicles are sporty. They drive really nice. They tend to handle
it really well, because they the
battery’s down low and they have a low
center of gravity. They’re quick. It’s the torque. It’s the torque. Exactly. So I think it’s a really
neat way to go, yeah. And everyone has a soft
spot for a Mustang. I can’t even tell you how
many people, like, friends, that rotate leases
between Audis and BMWs, and look at a Mustang,
and they say, well, maybe this time I
should get a Mustang. They’re not saying,
I want a Lincoln? No. No. No. But then two-door only and
all-wheel drive, and then their wife puts some sense in
them, and it’s a non-starter. So now with that, it’s
a whole new ballgame. And thinking outside
of the box, you could say the same
thing about Corvette. How come a mid-engine? And that’s not a
Corvette really. Oh, oh, let’s take it further. And result is that
it’s just terrific. Well, I think we need a Corvette
hybrid or full electric pickup truck, and I think that we need
a Dodge Viper hybrid minivan. You guys could use those– We laugh, but it might be
in the future pretty soon. But why not tum
them into brands? Right. Why not? Right. People are excited
to buy these names. So, eh, more power to them. Onto the next one. We can probably talk about
the Mach-E for hours. Anyway– All right, let’s get
back to the Mustang. Right. OK. Mercedes-Benz EQC? Talking about maybe
250-mile range? Does this have some
substance to it? Well, let’s be careful. 250-mile range,
as far as I know, is according to the WLTP,
which is the European standard. Whoa. Let’s just be careful here,
because the EPA doesn’t have an estimate for it yet. So I won’t be
surprised if it ends up being around 200 miles
when it lands here. But Mercedes is not
sitting on their hands. They’re jumping into this, too. I was kind of dismayed
to read that this is going to have the same
Mercedes controls that we have issues with. It’s too bad that they couldn’t
have changed that up, but– Well, it’s basically
a GLC, which is a compact luxury SUV,
which is a really nice car. But yeah, it gets the
MBUX infotainment system. And while it has a broad
range of capabilities, it’s a little
frustrating to use. It has its issues. It’s another one–
again, not like– I’m going back to the Mustang– a little bit different,
a little bit exciting. Look, everyone’s doing this. We got the Audi with the
e-tron, we got the Jaguar with the I-PACE, a luxury
crossover-ish thing, fully electric, that
they want to play to. All right, which
you brought up Audi. The e-tron Sportback,
kind of stylish– Yeah. –you know, nice-looking, but
again, another big name car company saying we’re
into this EV market. And what’s interesting
to me is it seems to me– indulge me for a second– they
all seem to be kind of bowing to the temple of
Tesla, because– hold on– because they’ve
got the big screens, the big touchscreens. They’re really fast. They’re talking about
the over-the-air updates, this whole thing that has
really been ushered in by Tesla. And– Sure. –they’re all taking a
page from their book, whether they want
to admit it or not. No, it’s true. Look, Tesla innovated in
a lot of different ways. And now we’re
seeing the rest lot of the industry kind
of catching up to that and trying to steal
that excitement. Whether or not they are
or not, I’m not sure, because I think Tesla
still kind of has a different aura about it– Yes. –than these companies that
have been around for 100 years. But that’s almost why
they’re like the temple, because they preside
over almost everything, it seems, these days in
the automotive world. It’s no secret that Tesla
has been a wake-up call for the rest of the industry. And Tesla completely
threw out the rulebook and reinvented a lot of things. And when traditional automakers
are seeing that and seeing what kind of a coveted
brand that Tesla has become and what kind of a cult
following it developed, they are saying,
hey, we’re not going to just sit idly by and see
Tesla siphoning our customers. We’re more established. We can do it even better. But with that in mind,
EV sales in the US are probably less than 2%. And one automaker
specifically is saying, I’m not sure if we’re going to
be drinking the Tesla Kool-Aid, and that would be Toyota. Yeah. And Jake, you brought
up a really good point– I did? –when we were
talking about this. Imagine that, yeah. Every once in a while. You actually do have
to earn your paycheck. But Toyota, their approach
isn’t all about EVs. Right. So Toyota is distinctly not
kind of following everyone else and kind of like, OK,
let’s do that, too. They kind of go their own way. And you go back in time, they’ve
been doing the Hybrid Synergy Drive or whatever– that’s
been, like, over 20 years. And they just keep
on refining that. And they’re devoted to hybrids. They’re talking about just a
few years, 25% of their products are going to be hybrids. And we test them. And yes, they’re reliable. And yes, they’re affordable. And yes, they get
incredible fuel economy. Super fuel efficient. Yeah. Every generation
is more efficient than the previous one. And they’re not going down
this road of battery electrics. What they did show
was the RAV4– The RAV4 Prime. –Prime, which kind of
took me for a curveball, because I thought it
was like, oh, OK, we’ve got the hybrid
RAV4, and now we’re going to have a little
plug-in and whatever, just like the Prius Prime. But no, this is a
performance model. Zero to 60 in up to
5.8 seconds, which makes it the second fastest
Toyota after the Supra. According to Toyota. That’s exactly what they said. Yeah. So that’s kind of
really interesting. So do the performance and
do the environmental stuff all together. But they are not giving up on
just no powertrain, no engines. Right. And there, we got
the second generation of the Toyota Mirai, which is– A fuel cell car. –fuel cell car, which
is an electric car. And actually, very attractive. I thought it was
really good-looking. It looks a little bit
more mainstream and less a science project. But they’re devoted. They think that’s the long-term. We’re not there,
because obviously you need an infrastructure to
get hydrogen to the vehicles. But it does have
a lot of promise. It does make sense. Just to give you a kind of
perspective, when you’re talking about, what, was it 400
miles range and five minutes to charge, if you will. It takes five minutes to
fill it with hydrogen. Hydrogen. So you can’t do that
with battery electrics. Right. I think that you’ve got
to give Toyota credit for, as you said, sticking
with these things. They didn’t, for example,
right out of the box, have a formidable
off-road pickup truck. But they stuck with the Tacoma. They kept making it reliable. Actually, it’s fallen
on slightly hard times. But they have this reputation
for being a strong off-roader. And the resale value
of even used Tacomas is really– so Toyota
just keeps with the first. The first Prius
that they put out was just kind of a
dumpy little car. And they’re just
sticking with it. Clearly, Toyota is a very
careful and conservative kind of company. And it’s tiptoeing its way
into the electric world. It’s very established in hybrid. And it’s been on the
record a few times saying that, hey, we’re not
thinking that the battery technology and the– The speed. –the length of
charging is there yet. And we’re not seeing any– Toyota’s a company that– nobody at Toyota gets
up in the morning if they are doing
something that doesn’t bring an immediate
benefit and makes money. So they are– Right. But– –very calculated
and very measured. –they think long-term. I think that’s it. They definitely think long-term. And they’re thinking
long-term, and they’re thinking customers, and
what our customers going to embrace as Toyota customers. Right. And you said, if
battery technology does take this big
jump, they can just start dropping those into a
lot of their existing vehicles anyway. So in some ways, they’re almost
leveraging their situation, because they’re going to be
ready for whether the battery revolution comes
or it doesn’t come. Right. So anyway, EV sales,
I think, are likely going to grow in the future. They’re not there yet. But certainly, the car
companies are making steps to make sure that
they’re ready– They’re getting more affordable. They’ve been growing. –when they start ramping up. Yeah. So the other theme that we were
talking about was performance. It’s definitely not dead,
but it really looks different than it used to. Yeah. So look, here’s
the amazing thing. In a time of fuel
efficiency, cars are getting more fuel efficient,
and the environmental standards are increasing, we’ve got
powertrains and performance like we never have. Everybody’s like, oh, think
about the ’60s and the muscle cars. They got nothing on
today’s vehicles. We got so many vehicles– 600, 700, 800 horsepower. It’s unbelievable. But now they’re putting them
into SUVs and crossovers and everything. And the sports cars
of today are like– Mercedes-AMGs and the Audi– Yeah– –SQ whatever. –but not like the coupe, but
like the AMG GLS, which is, like, the big three-row SUV. And it’s amazing. So BMW. We saw Mercedes-Benz,
the Ms. It’s phenomenal the amount
of performance and power that they’re getting
out of these vehicles. Yeah, the people
have worked hard. They say, well, I’ve
kind of earned a sports car at this stage in my life. What am I going to get? A Porsche Macan, right? One of you guys brought
that up yesterday. I was like, well,
that’s perfect. Exactly. That’s what people
are going for. They need– Well, who says sports car
needs to be low to the ground, that you have to
crouch in there? And who says it has to
have only two doors? Right. Well, just over– Break the mold. –our shoulders is
the Audi booth and all those Audi RS series. Almost all of them
have four doors and hatchbacks design
and stuff like that. Four-door coupe. Exactly. I was over at the Toyota– there’s a TRD version
of the Toyota Avalon. How crazy is that? Who would have thunk? I know, right? A driving excitement. Yeah. But no, there’s still some
buzz over the new Supra, the new Corvette. So it’s not 100% dead. But I just thought it was
so interesting that what– the three of us grew up,
what a sports car was, and how completely
different it is now. Yep. So that kind of brings us
to our next segment, which is kind of other show notables. We don’t want to do short
shrift to other vehicles. And some of them that we’ve
covered on ConsumerReports.org, including the Nissan Sentra,
the Land Rover Defender. What other vehicles kind
of jumped out at you guys? I was stuck on the
Defender for a second. That’s kind of an
interesting vehicle, right? Yeah, I love the way it looks. Nothing has more swagger than
that Land Rover Defender. There are a few questionable
details about it that Jake is going to
tell us about, right? You could read my mind. You’re clairvoyant. I have no idea. Because we never
talk before the show, so it’s amazing how you do that. Well, first of all, yeah,
it’s really interesting. And first of all, you
got to get past the fact that Land Rover has 30,000 SUVs
that are all these luxury SUVs. They’re all on top
of each other– They’re all on top–
and a lot of them– –in the price ladder. –share platforms,
and they all overlap. So you get past that
for a little bit, I think that the
interesting thing to remember about
the Defender is it’s kind of like the Wrangler. This is kind of like
bare-bones, back to the basics. And they have the
Defender 90 and the 110. So the 90 is this
short wheelbase, like, really stubby– A two-door. –two-door. Yeah. That blew me away. And you look at the
approach angles– Well, the 90’s always
been a two-door. But I mean, when
was the last time– It’s the the
wheelbase in inches. –a two-door anything
was introduced? Wrangler. Yeah, but the Defender– Yeah. –hasn’t been around for,
like, 20 years or something. So you got these
short approach angles. And it’s kind of
interesting-looking. Something I just can’t get over
is this weird square of plastic that they smacked over
the back of this car, just to make sure you
can’t see out of the car, just to make sure you got that– because you don’t want
to have, like, 3/4 view, so you could change lanes
or anything like that. And it’s really hard
to see out of it. But you look at that vehicle. So there’s the two-door and
there’s the four-door, the 110, and there’s some
interesting things about it. One is you could get
three across seating– Three across. –in the front. So you could do,
like, a six-seater. You could also get one with a
third row, which I actually– Seven-passenger. Yeah, which I actually got
back there, which I think I almost needed the jaws
of life to get back out of. Did you say jump seats? Jump seats, right? Well, no, no. Well– Did it have the jump seats? It used to be these
jump seats that– Yeah. –went on the side. Right. But it’s like a normal flip
out third row that’s normal, but it’s really, really tiny. That was the worst part. You have to be a gymnast
just to get in there. But you can’t see out. So you get back there, and
there’s really no glass for you to see out. So I would get nauseous back
there, other than, you know– But you have heated seats there. You can get heated seats. Well, but I totally agree,
the styling looks great. It’s square. It’s different. It’s blocky. There’s, like, aerodynamics. [IMITATING EXPLOSION] So the Nissan Sentra. This is not a
totally exciting car. But Nissan’s not giving up
on regular passenger cars, are they? Yeah, and it’s lower and wider,
and looks much less dowdy than the previous generation. And interestingly, they
have a rear independent rear suspension in that car in
an era where the Mazda 3, which was the sporty
of the bunch there. It’s an entry-level car. Yeah. And now Nissan Sentra has that. They’re taking it seriously. And we just were in it
just a few minutes ago. And you get in the
interior, I mean, obviously, it’s the high
trim version or whatever, but it’s like, they have
some pretty nice interiors in this Sentra, with all these
pleated fabrics and stuff like that. I’m like, wow, OK. Yeah, and they
have a whole bunch of safety features as standard,
including blindspot warning. So Toyota, take notes. You think the Corolla is pretty
comprehensive about that? They have blindspot warning. Well, standard. Standard. Right. So you can get it. Right. And we remember when the
Sentra SE-R was actually a cool, affordable,
fun to drive car. I’m wondering, with this
more expensive suspension system they’re
putting in it, maybe one of those in the future? Any guesses? Maybe. I don’t know. Maybe– We’ll have to drive it. –an affordable car that’s
actually fun to drive. So any other notables? Yeah, there’s another
theme here in this show, and it’s all the tiny
SUVs that keep cropping up like mushrooms here. It’s the Mazda CX-30, the Kia
Seltos, the Buick Encore GX, the Chevy– Trailblazer. –Trailblazer. Exactly. So these are all kind
of slicing the SUV spectrum in all kinds of ways. And so it’s like
between the subcompact SUVs and the compact SUVs,
somewhere in between. And that’s a pretty
sweet spot of the market. They’re all going to be in
the mid 20s, low to mid 20s. It is, but there are
just so many of them. I shot the video for the
Trailblazer this morning. And we did a comparison. It’s between the Chevrolet
Trax and the Chevrolet Equinox. And the cameraman, we
were walking around, it was like, which is which? There’s the Traverse. No, that’s not it. And again, you almost have to go
to the backside of the vehicle to see the label to
make sure that you’re talking about the right one. It’s almost difficult for us. We score all these vehicles
and we have all these ratings. We sit there, and put
our heads together, and it’s usually just all
SUVs and mid-sized SUVs. Subcompact– There’s, like, small– –SUVs. –and a half, and a
little bit compact, and compact and a half. Compact-plus. It’s a whole continuum now. It is. Yeah. It is. We always have to really rethink
the way we even rate these, because there’s so
many slices of that. Yeah. Yeah. So we’ve covered
this SUV saturation. They’re just everywhere. But stepping
outside of the SUVs, literally, what was
the favorite vehicle that you saw at the show? So look, there’s a
lot of stuff here. But I think I really appreciate
innovation, something different. There’s lots of SUVs and
high-performance SUVs, and there’s sports cars
that are fast and all that. For me, it’s the Mustang Mach-E.
It is breaking the rules. It’s doing something different. It’s a sports car,
SUV, electric. It’s kind of a
different take on stuff. And I’m actually
really looking forward to getting my hands on one, and
driving it, and purchasing one. I guess we’re going to have to
get on the waiting list right now. Yep. Gabe? I’m really pumped about
the Mach-E as well. But I’m a little cooled
off by the interior of it. It’s a little drab there. But if I were Ford,
I’d use the 10 months that they have until it
goes to market to spruce up the interior maybe. And I also– I’m really excited about
the Land Rover Defender. That car has such an attitude
that it’s hard to ignore it. And I can’t wait to put
our hands on that one, too. Well, I mentioned before– thanks for asking. I mentioned before– How about you, Mr. Quincy? What do you think? What do you like? I mentioned before,
I like the Mirai. I like the styling. But then I looked at it,
and I said, this kind of looks like an Avalon. So I’m backing back from that. And I do appreciate– You’re waiting
for the TRD Mirai. Right. Exactly. that’s what
you’re waiting for, right? I do appreciate that they are– Sport. –going into the fuel cell and
that whole technology push. Yeah. But I got to tell
you, I was blown away by the Audi RS6 Avant. I was like, I want
something new. I want something innovative. You want to go back. I want something old, like a
really, really cool hot wagon. Yeah, yeah. Everybody loves wagons
these days, right? I sat in there, and I felt
the Alcantara steering wheel, and like, oh, this is– Did it have rich Corinthian
leather or something? Oh, it was so cool. OK. All right. I really, really liked it. All right. Well, listen, that’s about
all the time we have. Thanks so much for tuning in. We’ll see you next time. [MUSIC PLAYING]

About the Author: Michael Flood


  1. The future is electric.
    Talking about any OLD technology gas or diesel vehicle is a waste of time.
    The world is moving on to EVs with no emissions and less fuel and maintenance costs.
    Thank You Elon. You showed us the way to the future.

  2. Chrysler created a furor when brought back the Dodge Charger as a 4 dr Sedan instead of a 2 dr Sports Coupe. The purists went bonkers!!

  3. “The tiny SUVs that crop up like mushrooms” so true. LOL. Most of these small utes are just small cars that are raised with a hatch. Super plastic disposable camera type cars.

  4. Why does the WLTP standard exist if it can not come up with a range that is + or – 10% of real world miles.
    People should expect these agencies to be more accurate and not accept less than accurate mileage estimates.There needs to be a campaign to get the agency to step up.
    How do you make buying decisions on bad information.

  5. Styling appeal is subjective, but styling-wise the Mach-E resembles a proper Mustang about as well as a Mazda CX-5 resembles a Miata MX-5 and more strongly reminds one of a Tesla.  Perhaps a better, more accurate name choice for this vehicle would have been the Ford Fesla.  Alternatively, calling it an E-scape or Escape-E would also better characterize its nature than does the name of a traditional two-door sports coupe.  The cutting of some corners represented by Ford virtually eliminating all of the traditional reliable climate and radio controls, etc., in favor of an absurdly large and distracting touch screen might be an unfortunate decision from the standpoint of safety due to the distraction factor, ease of use especially when wearing gloves, and possibly even reliability; touch screens have been know to occasionally go blank taking all incorporated functions with them.

  6. The Mach E is truly stunning. Looking at the Taycan, which costs $120K+, I just dont see what justifies the insane premium over the Mach E GT (other than the brand name, which is important for a lot of folks). The only technical advantage the Taycan has over the Ford is a 2 speed gear (for improved high speed acceleration). The Ford even has a nice interior.

  7. So, the lesson from the Mustang II and the Probe (which was going to be the new Mustang) is that anything can be a Mustang? I get it, CUVs and SUVs sell, but Ford has some great old Names (Torino, Cyclone) that it could use or come up with a new one.

  8. Great overview as always. I was at the show for Press Days as well and by far my favorite was the Ford Mustang Mach E although I would be gun shy about getting one as Ford has been rough with the quality on their new launches (Explorer). I'm a proud owner of a Kia Telluride and happy to see it continues to win accolades. People continually come up and ask me about it.

  9. I think that soon we will also see a Mustang door door sedan with reverse hinged rear doors ala 1967-1970 Thunderbird as well and that Mustang will become its own franchise as Mercury was.
    They’ve already conceived this

  10. It's funny, the Prius that was praised here as having great fuel economy, gets less than 1/2 the fuel economy of a well done EV. Has CR changed your ratings so cars that get 1/2 the fuel economy of an EV, much less 1/4 like an Accord or Camry, don't get anywhere near top fuel economy ratings in your scores?

  11. Toyota is way too conservative and like in Japan, they should have made most of not all their models default hybrid. Im not particularly excited in their hybrid power train, take the nx for example. Tesla needs to lower their price and up the design a bit. Plane Jane

  12. I used to work for a Ford dealer in the service department. There is a big difference between a Mustang owner and a traditional Ford owner. But that said, maybe it is a gamble worth taking. I suppose we will see in the years to come.

  13. +1. .. Yeah man CR. .. The Audi RS6 Kombi rules. .. Make mine in shinny Stone Grey metallic (LY7U) with creme beige leather everywhere. .. And don't forget the winter wheel/snow tire package for the uber ski wagon.

  14. Worst show yet. "EVs are sporty". Are you kidding me?! Yes nothing says sporty like a 5,000lb + vehicle… CR sells out to the highest bidder clearly

  15. I'm sorry but "you could say the same thing about the Corvette"!?!

    No you certainly cannot. A mid engine Corvette is a logical step. The mach-e has the oder of a design by committee car.

  16. Thanks for going to the auto show so I don’t have to…I was really hoping for a lot more. I’m not going to drop $20 plus parking to go see a bunch of crossovers. Other than the Mach E and the Vette, yawn…I was hoping for new non-Tesla electric trucks, or a Chevy Raptor fighter, or a Bronco. But instead we get a plug in RAV4 and a Sentra.

  17. Toyota is just being stubborn. Unless they have developed a new way of producing hydrogen that is clean, efficient and cheap (which no one has) hydrogen fuel cells is a no go.

  18. The Mustang name is equity, yes, on a compact, two door, coupe, that normally has a powerful engine. Much worse, why the heck use the name Mach? They've used the name "Lightning" before on the "hot rodded" trucks. Why not take a risk and create a "Lightning Series" of vehicles (just like they have the F-series), and name them using the different types of lightning???? Granted Chevrolet beat them to the name Bolt already, but there are other options. An example: "Lightning Series – Blue Jet" or "Red Sprite", or whatever they like.

  19. Ford is trying to portray its electric SUV as a sport model, only reason why it is called a Mustang. The proof is in the details – if it is not sporty, it will have trouble. The expectation is now Ford's challenge to meet.

  20. If I lived in a year round warm climate, I would love electric. However, living in the Great White North, experienced sitting in traffic at night in a snowstorm… all lights on, heater on full blast, rear window defroster on, wipers working away, and still a long way from home… range anxiety would be too much. Sure you can get long range models … but they cost twice as much as any new vehicle I have purchased before.

  21. Drinking the Tesla Kool Aid. Love it. So glad Keith Barry was not in this video. It’s enjoyable to not be subjected to his condescending attitude and to his worldview. If Keith was on this program we would be forced to hear him prattle on and on about EV’s and rich people buying Land Rovers, etc, etc. Keep up the program with panelists who talk cars, not world views.

  22. I’m not sold on battery electric. These batteries seem like they’ll be an environmental hazard & money pit.

    The defender is definitely nice. It shows they’re going back, but staying modern. Will the bronco deliver?

    That RS6 😍 too, but Scotty wouldn’t approve.

  23. Screw the Mustang Mach-E! Ford has had problems with hybrid and electric cars! The stars are the Kia Seltos, Mazda CX-30, and Toyota Rav4 Prime!

  24. Does no body care about the battery? Ford is using over 50% more battery than Tesla for the same range. Tesla (50kWh) vs Ford 75.7 (kWh). I can't afford either and I'm happy both are coming to market, but shouldn't people be asking how they can be making this profitably using more batteries for the same range?

  25. I can't wait. This is a great move for Ford. When I got out of the Army, I bought my 1st Mustang, a new 1967 289 with 4 on the floor shift stick. Way to go FORD!

  26. Everyone is racing to catch up to a 2012 car. If Tesla revises the S & gets the price WAY down of the S & X & address parts availability the "industry" has a major problem.

  27. I don't know what the hype is over the new Mustang electric SUV. Ford owns Jaguar or vice versa. This is the same type of vehicle that the I pace is. It just has Ford's badging on it. Is this just a bait and switch?

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